When Teams Click
Continuing my conversation with Judy Ho and exploring the surprising role of conversation in achieving flow.
In our last conversation, Dr. Judy Ho and I discussed the positive aspects of neuroticism and finding optimal stress levels. If you haven’t checked out her incredible Substack newsletter, I encourage you to do so.
Here we explore the surprising role of conversation in achieving flow.
The following transcript has been edited for concision and clarity.
The Psychology of Flow
Dr. Judy Ho: One thing that I also really enjoyed in your book is this idea of the psychology of flow. To me, it makes a ton of sense, and I think that it can be used for a few different things. I think flow can be used for, obviously, improving productivity and skills and confidence, but also, I think that flow can be used as a self-care technique where you’re just doing something because you really enjoy it. But I think that there's some misconceptions about flow. People think that it's just about doing something relaxing. That's not quite what flow is. Can you tell me a bit about your understanding of flow and maybe what some of your own favorite flow activities are?
Sébastien Page: First, my favorite flow activity is writing. My second favorite — and I'm not just saying that because that's what we're doing — but it’s these types of conversations. When I started writing this book, I didn’t know that the concept of flow applied to teams as well. Sometimes, I have meetings where I look at the team and we're debating and coming up with new ideas, and I just step back and look at how we're working together. I realize the team is in flow, which is a really good place to be for productivity. And when this happens, time flies.
Finding Flow as a Team
JH: I love the idea that you can actually help teams to get into flow. It's not just an individual activity; it's also about a team.
What are some of the most common team flow activities that you've seen?
SP: What’s interesting is that Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the creator of the theory of flow, describes conversations as a way to get into flow. And this is key to me. There's a real human interaction, collaboration aspect to flow that's underrated. The question then follows, how do you get to that level in business?
It's important for us to let the best ideas surface. And that can be difficult because you have to agree to disagree on certain things and you have to go back and forth and play devil's advocate.
But if you do this in an environment where there's tremendous trust amongst the people involved, then it's beautiful because the intellect gets supercharged. If I have an idea but I'm not too sure about it, and I sit down with someone who I think is going to disagree with me, I get in flow. We have a conversation, and, an hour later, I'm either more confident in my idea or I've dropped it because it wasn't good to begin with.
Conversational flow is so important for team productivity.
JH: This is a good point. I never even thought about being in conversation with another person or a group of people as a flow activity, but you're so right. I love that idea of thinking about flow as a conversation where you lose track of time where there's a real connection.
Finding Flow
I hope you found this excerpt of our conversation helpful.
Remember:
Flow states aren't just individual experiences—they can enhance collective creativity and productivity.
Conversation itself can be a powerful flow activity, especially when there's trust and intellectual challenge.
Creating environments where ideas can be freely exchanged and challenged is crucial for teams to achieve flow states together.
In the coming weeks we’ll discuss:
The single most important thing to make giving feedback easier
Why billionaires aren’t the best role models
The positive sides of social comparison
Be sure to subscribe so you get the next one.
Seb
When he decided to write a book on leadership and self-improvement, Sébastien Page was rejected by over 200 literary agents.
He was asked, “Why would a finance expert write about leadership?” He was told to stay in his lane.
Sébastien has more than two decades of leadership experience. As an author, he believes breakthroughs often happen when experts venture outside their field. That is why, in "The Psychology of Leadership," he went beyond finance and economics to study research in psychology.
He is currently Head of Global Multi-Asset and Chief Investment Officer at T. Rowe Price. He oversees a team of investment professionals actively managing over $500 billion in assets under management.
Sébastien won research paper awards from The Journal of Portfolio Management in 2003, 2010, 2011, and 2022 and the Financial Analysts Journal in 2010 and 2014. In addition to The Psychology of Leadership, he is the author of Beyond Diversification: What Every Investor Needs to Know About Asset Allocation (McGraw Hill, 2020) and the coauthor of Factor Investing and Asset Allocation (CFA Institute Research Foundation, 2016).
Sébastien is also a member of the editorial boards of the Journal of Portfolio Management and the Financial Analysts Journal, and the Board of Directors of the Institute for Quantitative Research in Finance (Q Group). He regularly appears in the media, including Bloomberg TV and CNBC, and was recently named amongst the 15 Top Voices in Finance by LinkedIn.