In my last post about my conversation with Dave Asprey on his podcast The Human Upgrade, we discussed the psychology of stress, why zero stress is a myth, and why losing is the path to real mastery.
Here’s the second part of our conversation where we discuss:
the power of strategic patience;
building trust and culture;
resolving conflicts; and
the art of giving and receiving feedback.
The following transcript has been edited for clarity.
The Power of Strategic Patience
Dave Asprey: When you’re in a difficult leadership situation or you’re questioning yourself, what do you do?
Sébastien Page: When I face difficult situations, I just take a pause and try to be mindful of my own reaction and what's going on.
I talk about this in The Psychology of Leadership. Leaders—especially in business and money management—have a tendency to be decisive. This is a well-accepted fact. On the other hand, strategic patience may be the most underrated leadership skill.
There are plenty of decisions that come at you as a leader that might trigger a stress-based response where the answer is actually strategic patience.
Sometimes you need to be absolutely decisive, but in a lot of cases, you can take advantage of the time you have left.
The question then is: How do you know the difference?
It’s very simple. Ask yourself: How much time do I have left to make the decision?
You'd be amazed how often that question does not get asked. This is because in business we’re always moving fast. It’s always “Let's go,” not “let’s see how much time we have left.”
If you wait, sometimes the situation might resolve itself. Or, if you don't immediately rush to the rescue of resolving, say, a conflict, oftentimes you're empowering people in your team to resolve the conflict between them by giving them time to do it.
To learn more about strategic patience and how procrastination can make you a better leader, give this piece a read.
Building Trust, Culture, and Resolving Conflicts
DA: It took me about ten years of running a company to get to the point where I could hold back and let my people resolve it. But sometimes you still have to step in. How do you think high-performing teams need to handle conflict?
SP: Culture is super important in resolving conflicts. There are cultures where people just want to agree. But... always seeking consensus is not productive. Then there are cultures that are combative. Famously, in the money management world, there are places that are all about direct confrontation.
One of my friends works at one of these places, and he said that while there are lots of Ferraris in the parking lot, he’s never seen so many miserable rich people.
The key to company culture is trust and mutual respect.
We don't necessarily have to like each other. We don't necessarily have to agree on everything. But if there's a certain level of trust and mutual respect, and if we assume good intentions, then we get to a place where ideas survive on their own merit.
This is so important, especially in money management, because what you want is to get the best thinking out of your team. This is super hard to do. We don't know the future, so we need the ideas to bounce around freely.
DA: Now, if people aren't comfortable with losing, then they're going to lose the argument, and they're going to be emotionally reactive. So how do you get comfortable losing an argument without losing your mind?
SP: Rule number one is “your idea is not you.” Meritocracy is necessary for high-performing teams, but you have to leave your ego at the door. Not taking it personally is key.
The Art of Giving and Receiving Feedback
DA: Now, I do employee performance reviews. All my executives do. We have software that helps. We have structured conversations, and I work with people I think are great, but there have still been times when I say something, and someone just loses their mind over necessary feedback. What do you do about that at work? But, first of all, let me ask you, do you like that process, or would you rather be doing something else?
SP: It's a horrifying process. I'd rather be doing something else. No one likes it. Yet we all need feedback.
Dr. David Rock, who I mention in The Psychology of Leadership, has this hack for feedback.
It's so simple: ask for it.
The goal is to build a culture where people proactively ask for feedback.
Dr. Rock found that instead of just giving feedback, asking for the feedback and then receiving it decreases stress responses by almost half. So, as a leader, you should go around and say, "How did I do?" And then people look at you doing this and will start to do the same thing.
Another trick to giving good feedback is to make it forward looking by asking: “What can I do better next time to improve?”
That takes a lot of the stress out of the feedback. But let me ask you a question: Can I give you some feedback?
DA: Absolutely.
SP: How did you feel when I asked that question? Isn't that like one of the most stress-inducing questions?
DA: Not for me anymore.
SP: Literally, you didn't flinch.
DA: I felt excitement right in my chest. But I fully believe in continuous improvement, and I only do that with data. So, if you were like, "Dave, you know you're dressed like shit," I would have been like, "This is so cool. Someone's actually telling me the truth."
My big challenge as an exec, however, is that people tell you what they think you want to hear instead of the truth. How do you get people to tell you the truth?
SP: There is a way, but it's not perfect. It's the anonymous peer review.
This is another one we all hate, but at the same time, because it's anonymous it allows things to surface that otherwise would be difficult.
As the manager, once you collect this feedback anonymously you read it, understand it well, and then you have to pay attention to who wrote it.
The research actually shows that the feedback that someone gives you reflects almost as much of their own attitudes and worries and competence as yours.
Takeaways
Sometimes, decisiveness is critical. But not always. When important decisions come at you fast and furious, ask “how much time do we have left to decide?” Learn strategic patience.
More than “being nice,” a quality company culture requires trust and mutual respect.
Asking for feedback takes the stress out of the process. Ask: “How did I do?”
I hope you found this useful,
Seb
Watch the entire interview with Dave here.
When he decided to write a book on leadership and self-improvement, Sébastien Page was rejected by over 200 literary agents.
He was asked, “Why would a finance expert write about leadership?” He was told to stay in his lane.
Sébastien has more than two decades of leadership experience. As an author, he believes breakthroughs often happen when experts venture outside their field. That is why, in "The Psychology of Leadership," he went beyond finance and economics to study research in psychology.
He is currently Head of Global Multi-Asset and Chief Investment Officer at T. Rowe Price. He oversees a team of investment professionals actively managing over $500 billion in assets under management.
Sébastien won research paper awards from The Journal of Portfolio Management in 2003, 2010, 2011, and 2022 and the Financial Analysts Journal in 2010 and 2014. In addition to The Psychology of Leadership, he is the author of Beyond Diversification: What Every Investor Needs to Know About Asset Allocation (McGraw Hill, 2020) and the coauthor of Factor Investing and Asset Allocation (CFA Institute Research Foundation, 2016).
Sébastien is also a member of the editorial boards of the Journal of Portfolio Management and the Financial Analysts Journal, and the Board of Directors of the Institute for Quantitative Research in Finance (Q Group). He regularly appears in the media, including Bloomberg TV and CNBC, and was recently named amongst the 15 Top Voices in Finance by LinkedIn.
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